Please indulge me, I'm a meta fiend...

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

I love meta, so please indulge me.

These may seem like simple questions, but I love a good discussion..





1. Does anyone else think that at least a small part of the attraction between Zach and Shaun, in the very beginning was the fact that Shaun was someone he could TALK to, even just go surfing with, remember how he used to go alone and how he had said when Gabe told him that people didn't see him around (and we all know he was spending time with Shaun) he said because everyone had left, that Shaun was someone he could sit and talk to, he couldn't talk to Tori, certainly not Jeannie and let's face it, Cody is 5..so I think that while yes, he was attracted and Shaun too, a tiny little part was the companionship as well, you could even take that to be on Shaun's part too, he may have wanted to clear his head, but he may have wanted someone to talk to as well..he did just come from a bad break up.

2. Does anyone else think that Tori thought Zach was with Shaun long before he tried to tell her he was gay, I mean, she did tell him she knew for a time that Zach was and she was the one that brought up Shaun, plus, I think her mentioning that Shaun was good with Cody was very telling when they were having their conversation at the life guard tower when Shaun was watching Cody for them while he built the sand castle, and I think it was Tori that told Jeannie he was hanging around with him and that Jeannie was the one that told Tori that Shaun was gay, if she didn't know already--seeing that a lot of people already did.

3. Why didn't Gabe see Zach's car in the driveway when he almost caught them...unless he did see it and just didn't let or..or maybe Shaun picked him up, but then again, how could Zach get back home, that house was pretty far away from where he was living, even if he skateboarded it.



Just a few things I was thinking about, little things that this movie sort of makes you think about, seriously, this movie wasn't just great to watch, but it left you with the possibilities of having great discussions...*sigh* I just LOVE IT.

Comments

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

1 - I think you're right about the attraction. It was another adult, it was someone with a general clue to life and it was a tie of sorts to Gabe, who was off to school. I think Zach provided Shaun (in the beginning) with a good distraction, but I also think that there was always SOMEthing there between them, it just gripped them both finally. (I think Shaun quite possibly ended up with more than he was expecting, but obviously he doesn't seem to mind a single bit *g*)

2 - I think Tori definitely knew they had been together when they finally had that talk. I also think as early as that first time on the beach, before anything had ever happened between Zach and Shaun, she knew (the night of the cookout) there was something there between them even if they didn't yet know themselves. When you watch that scene - even when Zach was talking to her, he couldn't keep his eyes off Shaun and vice versa. They were DRAWN to each other.

3. I don't KNOW. It's possible Zach's Blazer was there and Gabe may have thought he was out on the water or something. (It's the only thing I can think of because hey, at the time, who is going to think that his best friend is in bed with his brother? Until later, when he sees Zach with Shaun's shirt and then... BUSTED. When he saw Zach later at the diner, he TOTALLY knew what was going on.

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

I totally think there was a spark there before the realization that they were both some one each could talk to, absolutely, you can tell, that awkwardness in that first conversation just wasn't about getting busted about being on the property to get his long board..plus in the commentary, Brad says that that night at the bonfire, Shaun is totally attracted to Zach already.

Shaun rocks, I don't think he minds anything where Zach is concerned. *smile*

2. That's when I thought she knew, (I think I forgot to add that part to the question, but she definitely knew by the life guard tower scene), when he told her that was Shaun, Gabe's brother, I think right then she knew, especially when you consider he'd rather play frisbee with him than talk to her or even sit near her at the bonfire, where she already had had thoughts that Zach was gay then, and then seeing his interaction with Shaun, I think she thought at least there was some attraction there.

3. I think Gabe is a lot more astute than he appeared, I think while he may not have known right then (when he came over that morning), and I'm still a little iffy on the shirt, I mean how do we know that he knew that was Shaun's? either way, I think he definitely had a clue, and what is great about Gabe he was so good about it, he cares for both of them and he shows it.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

that awkwardness in that first conversation just wasn't about getting busted about being on the property to get his long board.

YES!!! Thank GOD I wasn't imagining it. :D

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

It was totally there, here's what I like to think.

Shaun just got over a break up..Zach is all grown up now, and let's face it, he's cute..so he's checking him out, no problem with that, plus, at that time, he didn't know Zach knew he was gay, so he probably figured no biggie and nothing can happen and more, he has someone he can just hang with..and someone who is also an artist and young and full of energy and can help him regroup.

With Zach, I think he had found out he was gay and maybe before he had been attracted to him but thought it was more like just a friend thing..but still, there is something there...like maybe he's attracted to him more than just a friend.

Plus, like Shaun, he can just hang with him too.

But there was definitely something more than just getting caught there going on..those silences spoke volumes. I have to watch the commentary again, but I do remember at that bonfire scene, Brad was like, "He's so in lust right now" that that just doesn't pop up from no where, well sometimes maybe, but with them..no.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

But there was definitely something more than just getting caught there going on..those silences spoke volumes. I have to watch the commentary again, but I do remember at that bonfire scene, Brad was like, "He's so in lust right now" that that just doesn't pop up from no where, well sometimes maybe, but with them..no.

Oh TOTALLY. I think Shaun recognized it for what it was far before Zach did, but Shaun being Shaun, he was a prince and didn't act on it until he knew Zach would (probably) be ready for it.

And Dear God, Brad cracked me up during the commentary. :D Clearly, they had a lot of fun working together - not just Brad and Trevor, but Jonah, too.

[boonesfarmgirl.livejournal.com]

I swear to god we think alike. Are you sure you can not see inside my head??

1. To answer you question I think that Zach was having thoughts and feelings of being gay. Did he need someone to talk to yes, did they ever get that far without kissing, I do not know. On Shauns part he mentions the break up but it was not talked about again as far as we know.

2. Tori has to know something is up. People do not do on/off relationships unless something is missing. I think the light comes on when she talks to Zach then Shaun at the bonfire/cookout

3. I think Gabe saw the truck, went to find Shaun when the door was locked he knew. When he says you looked a little bit freaked there. Shaun says no, no just tired. Then the door slam, Zach's truck is gone and he goes to the diner.

Next we should talk about the goofs which you see after watching like a billion times like me!!

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

I'm telling you, we all think about this movie a lot, and that's what's so great about it, it gets people thinking and talking.

I think that Zach was probably having some inklings, maybe he was even attracted to Shaun but never really thought about it until he was there again..but I think they both just needed someone to talk to, Zach, for all he does for people really didn't have anyone to just talk to, Gabe was gone, Tori, I don't think so, Jeannie, nope and Cody is a little guy, I think that there was a spark (and he may have even thought more about him because of the book) but the longing to have some companionship really set it in motion even more...it was sort of like the lighter fluid that made the spark turn into a flame.

2. Oh, I think she knew then too, especially when he wanted to spend more time with Shaun and didn't sit next to her at all.

3. Gabe knew something was up, oh yes, yes he did.

I have seen this movie so many times now, I may be able to recite it verbatim. *smile* we're talking 30.

The goofs, here's one, watch the necklace during the first time scene...just before Shaun, well, let's say Shaun goes down...the pendant starts at his neck and then ends up at the arm pit..but you know, the goofs make it even better, it's not perfect but in a way it is.

I just love it!

p.s., love the icon...oh Brian!!

[boonesfarmgirl.livejournal.com]

Here are two goofs that kill me.

When Zach leaves Shaun the first time he is wearing a white beater and the sweatshirt, in the car he is wearing a red shirt, he gets to the house white beater and sweatshirt, they get to the grocery store, red shirt.

After the first time doing the horizontal mambo that little smile he does wearing a white beater but we all know from watching over and over (and in slo mo) he is wearing that dark sweatshirt and a red shirt no beater. I have thought about this....was the smile supposed to be the morning after their first kiss and the confused distracted look supposed to be after their first time? To me this actually makes more sense.

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

but if you notice, in that scene when he's taking his clothes off, he has a white shirt on under the red one..so he may have just put that one on when he left Shaun's house.

[boonesfarmgirl.livejournal.com]

All right for the sake of clarity I will watch the scene over and over again. BRB

After watching four times (it was a hardship believe me)he "helps" Shaun take off his shirt, then Zach takes off his sweatshirt, then his red shirt. I do not see an undershirt but i guess he could have been wearing one and took them both off at the same time.

All this research is making me...hot. Anyone with a bucket of ice water??

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

Check out the collar of the shirt, right on the side..there's white there..hence, the white undershirt..*smile*

I couldn't get a good grab of it, I'll do a better one tonight from my dvd.

[boonesfarmgirl.livejournal.com]

I bow before the master

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

There a split second where you can see it more, i'm just not fast enough. *smile*

No bowing necessary...It's from watching the movie about 30 times, plus that scene..maybe more. *smile*

[seleneheart]

1. I think at first Zach *was* relieved to have some one around that he could be friends with, without someone who would put extra pressure on him. Then he found himself into something quite different with Shaun.

2. I think Tori had a pretty big clue at the bonfire. Shaun and Zach played frisbee until the sun went down (or I presume they did). And I think she definitely knew by the time they had the conversation on the guard tower, which was why she wasn't content to let things drift the way they had been; she realized that Zach was on a different path.

3. I'm inclined to say that's just a continuity goof, but it could be that Gabe saw the truck and was giving Shaun (or Zach later) a chance to tell him on their own. It did seem like he was digging for something from Shaun when he was in the bedroom.

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

1. YES!!!
2. YES!!!
3. YES!!!

I'm going to be honest with you, I can't even elaborate on my reply because you really hit the nail on the head with how I think, with Tori thinking something was up at the bonfire..and why..she had to know something was up when he'd rather play frisbee with Shaun than be with her..and she had to notice how happy he was. And Gabe!! Yes, I think he thought something was up but was more digging to see what he'd say.

[spikedluv]

1. I think the initial attraction is the fact that they both have pre-existing crushes on each other, given the awkwardness of their first conversation, but yeah, having an adult he could talk too was probably a big draw for Zach over the course of the next few weeks. I mean, look how often we saw them being intimate/talking during the BGLM alone.

2. Tori totally looks suspicious that first day, her tone when she asks Zach who Shaun is, and the way she's looking at Shaun, sort of studying him. And I think it's clear to her that something's up the day she and Zach officially break up for good, the way Zach is suddenly so uncomfortable around Shaun.

I just can't see Jeanne and Tori having that talk, even if Tori just mentioned it in passing.

3. Gabe totally had to see Zach's Jimmy. It's not like Zach parks around back or anything. I like the interpretation that Gabe knows something's up and is waiting for them to tell him themselves. *g*

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

I think the being able to talk to someone was the fuel for the fire so to speak, if there wasn't a spark there, nothing would have made that fire grow. You had to feel for Zach, he really seemed so lonely before Shaun.

She maybe got a clue when he looked so happy, he wanted to play frisbee with him more than talk to her and even at the bonfire he didn't sit near her, now that could be chalked up to them being on a break, but still, it was telling...plus, that little added bonus, the scary music that was playing when Zach is watching the movie after when she made a move on him.

See, I can totally see Jeannie telling Tori Shaun is gay..but then there are times when I can't, but really, would we put anything past her? But then on the other hand she seems like the type that wouldn't say it because she'd fear what people thought about her family..meaning, she'd be more embarrassed for that than her own lifestyle. But I do think that Tori told her that Zach was hanging around with Shaun a lot.

Gabe thinks something is up, but I don't think he really can put his finger on it...in a way I'm sort of glad they didn't say how he found out, it gives more to think about, plus, he accepted it and was great about it, he cares for both of them and loves them both, and in the end, it's all that matters, but still, you have to feel for Gabe too, if he found out a hard way, meaning not by figuring it out himself, or from Shaun...but by a stranger, it would be hard for him because like he said to Zach, he was the one he told things to before Shaun. I like to think that like you said, he kind of knew and was waiting to see when they were going to tell him.

[at-midnight.livejournal.com]

First all all, discussion about these is VERY good. believe me *lol*. I watch this movie over and over, I practically can repeat all the lines *lol*

1. I think you are right. Other than the feeling I have that Zach actually has a crush on Shaun first (he might look at him as this cool older character, who is willing to be around him and Gabe, so he sort of having this admiration building inside of him - which makes him follow everything Shaun has been up to, like reading his books) - but I think Shaun is also someone he can talk too

2. Oh, I TOTALLY think that Tori thought that Zach is with Shaun. The first time when she asked "Who was that", and Zach said that it was Shaun, I think she already had the feeling that this was the guy Zach developed a feeling for. To be honest, I have total respect for Tori. I love the way she said, "Just make up your mind, Zach". In a way, I think she tells him to JUST LET GO, and go after the guy. She wants him to see it and says it out loud an just DO it, you know? I love the way she teased, "But you can't fuck me" when Zach asked whether he could stay at her place

3. Hmmmm, I'm not really sure about this. Thinking about Gabe's nature, I think that he MIGHT know that there was something going on - he MIGHT see Zach's car but he wanted to give a chance for the two lovebirds to tell him so. But he didn't have real proof until he saw Zach wearing his brother's shirt :)

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

ME TOO!!! I have seen it so many times I almost hate to admit to how many times *cough30cough*

I love doing meta, so you know I'm loving all this so thank you for participating!!

1. When we first see Zach, he's alone, he skateboards alone, he surfs alone, he has to drive Gabe out to get to his other ride to go back to his life and Zach is sort of stuck where he is, he draws in his room, he paints, even where he works, he's at the grill..alone. And then comes Shaun, someone he knows, someone that's going to be around that he can spend time with surfing, talking to, relating too..and yes, I think there were sparks there, but for Zach to confront how he feels about them, there had to be more than just sparks, there was something else, I always thought that the fact he let him look at his sketch book, something that is almost like diary to an artist was very telling too, he let him in side, he was opening up to him and that's something you only do with someone you trust..and can talk to.

I love that Tori took it so well, she did say she thought he was for a little while, and i think with the way he was around him...she had to think there was something going on, plus, when they are in that life guard tower, why would she say that Shaun is really good with Cody unless she was sort of trying to see that maybe Shaun's the one for him to be with. Plus, the fact he was so animated with Shaun as opposed to her probably told her something too..that bonfire scene was a clincher for her I think as well.

I'm wondering if he knew that was Shaun's shirt though..but I think he had a thought there was something going on with Shaun, and then what happened at the party, that Zach just took off and maybe Shaun was a little upset..he put the two together.

[at-midnight.livejournal.com]

I think there were sparks there, but for Zach to confront how he feels about them, there had to be more than just sparks, there was something else

And that's why I am very firm on the "crush" thing. He has always seen Shaun as someone he truly admire and now that he is back, he has all those feelings coming out to him again. In double full force, this time.

Did you notice how his paintings used to be dominated by black and white, but when Shaun returned, and they talked through the walkie talkie, then after the Shaun's battery's dead, Zach picked up the RED pen and started to paint with RED?




Red IS the color of loooove :). That's what speak volumes for me. Of course we see Zach being able to finish that epic wall painting after the love making (lol)

I'm wondering if he knew that was Shaun's shirt though

Yes, I DO think he knows. Why? I don't think Gabe is someone who pays attention to somebody else's shirt, you know? He could be very vain, what he cares about are they look, their face, like when he was talking about new pussy to Zach.

I believe because Gabe and Shaun are close, Gabe knows what his brother's taste of clothes is like. So when he saw Zach wearing it, he put the two together. I think he gave Zach a hint that he knew, but actually wanting Zach to say it first, so he dropped the casual remark about the shirt

It was pretty much like Tori, when she hinted about how good Shaun was with Cody, just to make Zach give up his feeling

I think both Gabe and Tori wanted the words to come from Zach. That's why they both dropped hints here and there, they want to push Zach to finally acknowledge how he feels for Shaun.

That's what I though anyway :)

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

Believe me, I totally caught it, and how HAPPY he was after he talked to him, there is a definite change in him, and the red, I said the same thing, when I watched it for the first time I was like..look at all the red, and that's the color of love and in such stark contrast to the black and white world he was living in..Shaun gave him COLOR and that's love.

I totally think that they wanted him to say it, Gabe gave him a chance and he denied it at first...I love that little "Okay" like, he gave him that chance and then came out and said what he did, but you know what I really liked about it, there responses, Zach was so scared and they both still loved him and accepted him..and you know, I think they BOTH wanted him to be with Shaun, Tori even more, when she said that Shaun was a good guy..even in tower when she said that he was good with Cody..not only did she have a clue, but she was looking out for him too.

[true-enough.livejournal.com]

Mmmm meta ... Thank you!

1. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. To my eye their relationship seems to be rooted soundly in comfort. Someone to talk to, someone to lie in bed with, share a beer with, wrestle with, simply look at without censor. We see firsthand that everything that Zach loves to do from skateboarding to surfing is something that he does alone and from the comment that Shaun made about not being good about being in limbo I get the feeling that he was left there for a good long time before the breakup he's trying to recover from. I get the impression they're loners by necessity and not entirely by nature. I think when they reacquaint as adults the familiarity and the good company are the driving forces to begin with. Of course, the beer and wrestling put a whole new focus on it but it was nice to see in the montage scene that the companionship was still foremost.

2. I think Tori started putting 2 and 2 together as early as the frisbee scene at the beach. Zach is so animated around Shaun and keeps gravitating towards him both with the frisbee and again around the bonfire. I think the bored and distracted kiss she got at Zach's house later on only confirmed her suspicions. After that, she really begins to move towards making their time out something a lot more permanent. And yes, Tori and Jeanne seemed to be exchanging a lot of information that made it possible for them to come to a conclusion about Zach before even he did.

3. Gabe not noticing Zach's big ol' truck in the driveway (where we see him park it twice is just one of those things I told myself I just have to let go. ::grin:: It doesn't make any sense. The only way is if they mentioned that Shaun brought Zach over to the house but then how would Zach get to work? If they had to have a scene with Gabe barging in on them I would have preferred something where they just pretend that Zach was surfing and stayed the night - no big deal. Gabe could have teased them with his wonderfully un-PC humor about hooking up so that they'd squirm. It also would have given Gabe the wee hint that he needed to find them out. That comment at the diner about Zach's/Shaun's t-shirt is very telling. He is so onto them! I love it!

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

Have you read the other replies I made, I swear it's everything I said, YOU META REALLY WELL!!! We so think alike, seriously, you pretty much said everything I would have replied if someone else had posted these.

Yes, YES, YES, I think they both are lonely and sort of isolated, not by choice, even if there weren't sparks there was something there that they saw in each other, someone to talk to, someone that they could spend time with, someone that they could just BE with. I think, like you said, they were loners not by nature but by necessity..and the limbo scene, I thought that was VERY VERY telling, that it's almost all or nothing at all, he doesn't go half way or leave things hanging..and Zach's response was telling as well, that it took practice. I think I wrote it in the comments to the fic I wrote or somewhere else that for me it was sparks and also companionship, you can clearly see that they like spending time with each other and more, that Zach was also excited to have someone just to HANG with, that next day when he goes to ask him to go surfing, yes, there may be an attraction but I think some part of that was also being excited to have someone around, remember he said everyone had left when talking to Gabe. I love that montage, part of it is exactly what you said, that they like just spending time with each other...one part I love, toward the end when they are sitting on the cliff and you can barely see it, but you see Zach put his arm around him and pull him close..I LOVE THAT. And while it's totally established that they both had feelings for each other and that they were happy, do you think, that other than just wanting him to go to Cal Arts, that friendship was also the reason why he wanted him to move in with him so soon?

I was saying the beach/bonfire scene is the one where she sort of realized, look at how much happier he is when he's with him or just talking to him, it's like night and day, and the fact that he'd rather play frisbee with him than spend time with her or even sit near her at the bonfire, and then after, how he was less than interested and the "scary" music playing..now that was a some appropriate background music.

We were talking that maybe either he did see it and didn't say anything or Shaun drove him..but then how would he get home or to the diner? Maybe he was picking him up after too. And that's a great scenerio too, that he did catch him there, but not in bed and was like.."what, you throwing me over for my brother??"

[true-enough.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I just jumped in but now that I've had a chance to read the replies I see that we're all pretty much on the same page. ::grin:: Thank you for the meta compliment! ::beams::

... when they are sitting on the cliff and you can barely see it, but you see Zach put his arm around him and pull him close..I LOVE THAT.

Oh good god almighty. Me, too! I so wish that the camera had stayed on them instead of panning up. I wouldn't have been surprised to see Zach nuzzle, if not kiss, Shaun's temple or fuzzy head. Have you seen this picture (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/TrueEnough/Shelter/zachleaningonshaun.jpg)? Why is it not in the film??? Please let there be a Directors Cut of the DVD with all the fannish stuff added back in.

... do you think, that other than just wanting him to go to Cal Arts, that friendship was also the reason why he wanted him to move in with him so soon?

Absolutely. I think it was because Shaun cared about him - as a friend, as a lover - that he wanted what was best for Zach and if he could help it along by mailing in his application or offering him a place to stay then that's what he'd do. I think Shaun practices a kind of agape love - wide open and unconditional. And the fact that they've known each other for so long only reinforces it because he knows Zach is a good guy ::mumbles:: despite all the flinching. ::/mumbles:: I also think that both of them are the type of people that once you're in - you're in. Their friendships and love are abiding.

"what, you throwing me over for my brother??"

LOL! If I can't see this on film then I hope to see it in a fic. Perfect.

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

IT'S OFFICIAL, we SHARE A BRAIN. I love that cliff scene and every time I watch it I almost follow the camera and can swear I see a nuzzle at the very least, I hate to say this, but I would have rather have seen that whole scene than the buying Cody the shoes one.

I LOVE THAT PIC, I've seen it and icons made of it and it just gets me right in the heart, and I think that pic is a PERFECT explanation of their relationship, don't you think, it's not only adorable but again it shows that Zach really wants to be with him..even if a few times he shied away from a kiss (oh that kitchen scene, that's why I love the end, before he'd move, BUT then he totally put his arms around him first and kissed him--I commend the director for adding that scene).

And YES YES YES, let me put it this way, my MOTHER watched that movie, of course I ff'd over the lovin' scenes..but she watched the rest and was like during the break up.."That's a shame, he's such a nice guy" and he is, Shaun is a DOLL and he totally loves full on and does it quickly, he reminds me of the type of guy that would do anything for anyone.

seriously, I may have to friend you just so you can read my meta, because I said the same thing, he SUPPORTS Zach, he ENCOURAGES Zach, he BELIEVES in Zach, he wants THE BEST for Zach--so much so he would send in his application because he doesn't want him to waste his talent.

That's more than his family ever did for him, Jeannie is so selfish she only thinks about herself at the sacrifice of her brother's happiness.

I was replying to someone who left a comment on my fic--they were worried if Zach would meet someone at college..my answer, NO, he's happy, he's got the life he's always wanted, for him, for Cody, he's loved, he's supported, and to me, he isn't the type to wander either..he isn't a partier either any more, he reminds me of the type that stays and sticks and wouldn't do something like that, they have a bond and it's not going to be broken.

*sigh*

Thank you for this, seriously, THANK YOU!!!

oh, and I would totally write that for you too...it would be a fun fic with laughs and of course Zach and Shaun love too. *smile*

[true-enough.livejournal.com]

OK. So I jumped the gun and friended you. I really do hope you don't mind. After all, we share a brain. ::throws up hands::

... even if a few times he shied away from a kiss (oh that kitchen scene ...

I think the hug in the backyard really calmed Zach down a lot. For one thing, he desperately needed it and for another I think it let him know that Shaun cares for him beyond what they do in bed. I was really heartened when Shaun gave Zach a goodnight kiss at the door and Zach didn't hesitate to return it. And yes, the canoodling at the beach at the end was so reassuring to see.

I was replying to someone who left a comment on my fic--they were worried if Zach would meet someone at college..my answer, NO ...

I am with you on this 100%! I would have an extremely hard time believing that either one would risk what they have in large part because it is so grounded in friendship and you just don't come across that very often - if at all. They are IT for each other. That is so abundantly clear. ::sigh::

The gratitude is all mine. When I started this I was honestly worried that no one would show up so I am very grateful to come across so many thoughtful and amazing people like yourself. Thank you!

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

Believe me, it was okay!!! I added you right back. *smile*

You know what I love about that scene, other than the fact that it shows again just how wonderful Shaun is and how caring he is and how much I adore him..that even though Zach hesitates a second (and we'll totally give him a free ticket on that one, it is all new to him too..and not just the man love, but the fact that someone is so AFFECTIONATE with him, I'm sure Tori was, but this is different, this is more of a mature affection, if that makes any sense) and then just totally goes for it, another thing I do love about the movie, in a LONG LONG LIST, is that it shows just what you said, it's not all about sex, it's about just being there for someone else and Zach's slowly but surely opening up to him, it was like he was so guarded before but with him he can show his feelings so much easier.

Zach would never jeopardize what he has, and like you said, it's rooted in a friendship, one that has lasted a long time, they almost have a shared history and no one else is worth losing that over, it's one thing to just grow apart and it's another thing to look for someone else and there is no way that Zach or Shaun would do that, to me Zach is too grounded to do that, and also, too mature.

They found each other again at the perfect time, Shaun was hurting too, I think sometimes people forget about that as well, it's like he's got this love to give and finally found someone to give it to..that would appreciate it, their feelings run deep and in a way, they inspire each other to be and do their best. *sigh*

You are too nice!!! I love discussing good movies or shows or books, so this is like a treat for me!

[brokeback1963.livejournal.com]

2. Brad Rowe said to Trevor in the commentary part in the DVD, when we see the scene when Tori meets Shaun at the beach: Tori knew before you even knew!!

3. I think that Shaun brought Zach, and well I think Shaun was gonna bring Zach to the diner later, but then Gabe showed...But things was not supposed to be with Zach leaving without car...Well, I really don't know...

Tammy.

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

He also said that Shaun was already in lust when they left that bonfire. Tori was astute, I'm telling you, she knew, she knew.

I think it was the smiling, the laughing, the choice to play frisbee with him, the not sitting near her and even after when they are at the house.

I wouldn't be surprised if Shaun picked up Zach, but then how does Zach get to the diner, maybe he did, so that Zach could stay over and wouldn't have to run off in the morning, he could drive him to the diner and then pick him up after.

[shopinchickcas.livejournal.com]

1. I think you're right about this.

2. Tammy's right. In the commentary they did say "She knew before you did". It was the way she looked at Shaun during the frisbee scene.

I dont think that Jeanne and Tori talked. I think that Tori figured it out on her own. I mean, she was his GF and they were obviously really close, so I think she always kinda had that sneaking suspision and then when she saw Zach and Shaun together, her suspisions were confirmed.

I think the way Jeanne figured it out was bc, like she said in that oh so hot scene when Zach is in the shower, she knew that Shaun was gay, and she was scared that Zach was too. So I think she had her suspisions also. Then I think Cody brought up hanging out with Shaun, even after she told Zach that she didnt want Cody around "that". She's enough a *clears throat* slut, to know that when you are sexually attracted to someone, it doesnt matter what anyone else says, you HAVE to be with that person. I just dont think that she associates Zach's sexual attraction to Shaun with love, until the end of the movie.

3. OMFG... I have had this conversation with people before too!!!! Thank god someone else picked up on it!!!! Gabe HAD to have seen Zach's car. I think that's why when he walked into the room, he walked right to the closet where Zach was hiding.

I think he figured out then (when he saw Zach's car, and then Shaun's reaction) that Shaun and Zach were hooking up. And then when he saw Zach wearing Shaun's shirt, and Zach's reaction to the longboard comment, his was positive. The reason that I think he didnt bring it up to either of them, was because he wanted Zach to tell him himself. In the diner, after the breakup in the car, Gabe is obviously hurt that Zach didnt confide in him. "I used to be the person you talked to- before Shaun- remember?" I think he was just being a good friend and trying to give Zach a chance to tell him in his own way, when he was ready.

As you can see, I LOVE talking about this movie too!!!! So bring on the discussions!!!!

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

He must know that he's been spending time with Shaun or else he would have never made that comment about telling Shaun things and not him, while I'm still not sure WHEN he knew I still think he had a sneeking suspicion that something was up.

Now, the car, the only way he couldn't have seen it..because let's face it, there is no way he couldn't have, was if Shaun drove him over there and was then going to drive him to the diner..if he wanted to spend the night, he may have wanted to leave the truck with Jeannie so she could drive herself to work..that way he didn't have to rush off in the morning..but DAMN that's a pretty long walk back to that diner if that is the case.

I think that Tori knew that there was at least an attraction between him and Shaun, where she said later that she knew for a little while..or thought for a little while that he was gay anyway, but the bonfire and before may have clinched it for her..the fact he was so much HAPPIER with him could have done it for her and more over...when she tells him that Shaun is really good with Cody, she's almost telling him BE WITH HIM. Now Jeannie, she's just tacky, selfish and really nasty, after all that Zach has done for her it all comes down to HER not wanting to deal with that..like, take a look at your own life, that guy has NOTHING to be ashamed about.

And it's funny, she's so judgemental of him, but he's got a guy who is supportive, caring, loving and wants him to be his best..and is good with Cody, while she has someone that doesn't want to have Cody around and she's the one always trying to shove Zach down to suit her own needs.

Looks to me that Zach is in a mighty better position and relationship than she'll ever be.

I think that Tori told her that he's been hanging around with Shaun and she put two and two together as well.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you all that part of the attraction is of Shaun being someone Zach can talk to. From the very first time I watched this movie (I've lost count how many times I have watched it now) I noticed the ackwardness in Zach when he first sees Shaun in the house. This makes me think that Zach has always had a thing for Shaun. Given the kind of life Zach has to deal with, I think he needs/wants someone to guide him and Shaun being the older guy, Zach finds the admiration and guidance he needs. I don't see any ackwardness in Shaun when they first meet. I think Shaun only finds himself drawn to Zach after they meet again. I don't think he thought about Zach in that way before. He had a boyfriend and he doesn't seem like someone that would think of another person while in a relationship. I think it's after he comes back and sees that Zach has grown into this wonderful man (compared to when he was a kid in that video) that he finds himself attracted to him. And their relationship starts from there on.

I also agree that Tori knows that something is up with Zach. I mean someone with some sense would start to suspect about your boyfriend if he doesn't want to get intimate with you, and is not seeing other girls.

I just ordered my Shelter DVD so I haven't watched the commentary yet, but I read it in another discussion board that Ross Thomas commented that Gabe does not know about Shaun and Zach when he almost catches them. So at the time he comes to the house and finds Shaun in his locked room, he doesn't know anything and shouldn't be suspecting anything. And yes, there are some holes in this part of the story. Shouldn't Gabe have seen Zach's truck outside? But maybe Shaun did pick him up like you guys suggested. I also find it hard to believe that Gabe would know that the shirt Zach's wearing is Shaun's, especially given that he doesn't live with his brother and doesn't seem like they see each other often to know what shirts Shaun has. In a way, I kinda hope that the director would have put in more concrete evidence showing how Gabe found out or at least follow up on the comments he made, such as to the shirt.

[inthekeyofd.livejournal.com]

You're another one that is totally reading my mind.

While I think he was attracted to him then, I don't think he's BEEN attracted to him over years and years, I think that DVD scene is a big one because he's thinking..wow, he has grown up..he's not that teenager anymore..and Shaun, yes, he's totally the type that is committed and wouldn't wander at all.

And the fact that there seems to be a lot of "limbos" and that he seems to want to spend more time with Shaun and is a whole hell of alot happier with him too.

WATCH THE COMMENTARY, I've only watched it once, but I will say THANK YOU for thinking the shirt didn't give him away, if Gabe had not seen Shaun and he hadn't since he had gone to visit him a year ago...when could he have seen it??? Style wise, I see my sister every day but she's worn shirts I've never seen before and I couldn't them in line up..so how would he know?

The commentary is great, like you find out which tattoos are actually Trevor's and which aren't (the one on his back isn't his) and Brad is too funny--during the scene just before he makes up his mind--before the hotness scene, he's like "Is that how you go and claim your woman"

It's cute and it's insightful like the fact that the director had them come back and film that very last sequence just to drive the point home that they were together and happy.

See he never gets into how Gabe found out, but you do find out something..something I wish they HADN'T changed because it would have made it a little easier to think he could have found out at the party..that "break up" was supposed to happen IN the party or IN the bathroom at the house during the party..so it would have narrowed down how Gabe found out..like he could have easily overheard it..but they changed it to the convo being in the car which leads to more questions of how he found out.